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May 01, 2020 By Mark Moody Photography by Christa Joyner Moody Pinegrove

Montclair, New Jersey’s Pinegrove was founded 10 years ago by Evan Stephens Hall (songwriter, vocalist, guitar) and Zack Levine (drums). The group has put out four albums and various singles and EP’s over the course of their career. Their breakthrough arguably came on 2016’s Cardinal, with its deft mix of empathetic lyrics and alt-country stylings. After a much publicized hiatus surrounding Stephens Hall, the group returned in 2018 with the more reflective and hopeful Skylight.

January brought another acclaimed album in Marigold on new label, Rough Trade, and plans for an expansive tour. After wrapping the first leg of their tour in Dallas, the world became engulfed in the COVID-19 pandemic and the indie music world of non-stop shows and touring came grinding to a halt. Under the Radar had originally planned this interview and photo shoot for the group’s February stop in Austin. Though the show coverage and photo shoot went on, the interview was rescheduled for after the group’s initial run of dates.

Mark Moody caught up with Stephens Hall recently via telephone from Pinegrove’s Amperland studio and home base. With Marigold out in the world for several months now and an ample amount of free time, the discussion ranged across multiple topics of the day and of course on Pinegrove’s future plans. The discussion was accompanied by Stephens Hall’s footfalls and birdsong as he walked his Upstate New York springtime environs.

Mark Moody (Under the Radar): Hi, it’s Mark Moody from Under the Radar. How are you?

Evan Stephens Hall (Pinegrove): Hey, Mark. Yeah. I’m doing well.

Okay. Good. You and I met back at the Austin show that my wife and I covered. And I know the world’s changed a lot since then.

Oh, hasn’t it. Yeah.

So it’s changed the focus of what we might cover, but maybe we can start out kind of pre-Marigold just a little bit in terms of shopping for a label. You guys signed with Rough Trade and I was wondering what that process was like?

Well, pretty simple really. No smoke and mirrors. We finished the record and sent it to some people that we thought might be interested. And they were. [Laughs] So they were one of a few labels that we ended up talking to. And I think the process for us is probably like for most bands. You have a series of conversations with the people that are in the running, and you see if you’re compatible. If they like where you’re coming from and if they are interested in supporting the sorts of ideas you have. And we found that since signing with them that’s been totally true. They are supportive and encouraging when they need to be. They kind of help reign me in or help me be a little bit more realistic about manifesting an idea and when it’s too big or impossible or whatever, but we’ve been totally psyched so far.

Oh, good. And that’s where I was going to go next in terms of what kind of support you’ve gotten from them. I know you did get to go over to the UK and do a few release shows.

Oh, yeah, yeah. So they have an American office and I think part of why this was so mutually interesting is that they were interested in expanding their American roster and get more firmly established over here, too. They’re part of the Beggars Group. So they share a lot of staff with them, too, whether it’s the video department, the content department, or it’s just radio. I think our project manager is a member of Beggars’ staff more broadly, so there’s a lot of crossover there. And, yeah. It’s been great. We did our first video, which they were extremely supportive with from a concept level to providing people to make it happen and the budget, of course. And then since then, we’re in the process of working on our own very comprehensive kind of career-spanning in-studio session movie type thing, sort of an homage to the house that we recorded Skylight and Marigold in.

Okay. So an Amperland documentary type thing?

Yeah. That’s right. So, yeah. It’s like sort of a mix between an Audiotree performance and a Beatles movie. One thing that I have more officially talked about though in an extremely casual context on the most recent live-stream. We are doing an Elsewhere Volume 2 live album, which I’m pretty sure is going to include at least one cut from the Austin show.

Oh, nice, good. So I know you guys started out the year really strong with the new album and the tour. The past couple of years have been kind of stop/start existence for you guys. So how are you all handling that? I mean we’ll get more specifically into the COVID related stuff. But just coming out of the gates so fast there and then having to shut things down again. How has that been on the band overall?

Oh, yeah. Well, our primary source of income is playing shows. So that’s been challenging. But having toured basically nonstop in 2016 meant we played I think 200 shows in 2016 and when you’re on the road, you are pretty much just being on your per diem, and the venues frequently give you a built-in meal or some sort of hospitality. So we were extremely frugal on that tour. Didn’t spend a whole lot of money outside of the tour itself. And amazingly, that kind of helped us through the hiatus and then we were able to tour just a little bit more. So, I mean, we’re in a fine place. I know a lot of artists are struggling a lot more, and really my heart is with the community right now.

Sure. So you’re saying basically you were used to kind of a more frugal existence and having to live off of a budget and so you’re not that far beyond that mode?

No, not really. And I love spending time outdoors, and we’re in a space where we can still do that. So I’m really grateful for that, but ideally I’m spending most of my time reading and writing anyway. So this hasn’t changed my day to day all that much but that said, there is a lot of ambient anxiety going on. I feel extremely helpless about the primaries moving forward today in Wisconsin. I feel like there’s just no persuasive claim that it’s a legitimate primary at this point. It’s really upsetting that the Supreme Court [didn’t intervene]. It’s voter suppression at least and kind of negligent homicide at worst. So, poll workers in Florida, a few have passed away.

That’s where I am. So I voted by mail fortunately.

Yeah. I think that’s exactly what we should be doing. We should be moving to a 100% mail in absentee process. That’s where I’m at but anyway, I think the primaries are kind of microcosmic of this larger feeling. And we all suspected the systems in place were inadequate, but it’s really failing a lot of people and I think underscoring the greed endemic to American policy.

So I was going to talk about Marigold a little bit, but we’ve already gotten on this path. So why don’t we stay where we’re at and maybe backing up a little bit though for our readers. I saw the stream the other day, so obviously, you’re still you’re up at Amperland and you’re staying there?

Yeah, yeah, though our lease is up soon. So that’s a complication but we’re figuring it out. We’ve had a great time here. There are no regrets about how we’ve spent our time. And I feel ready to move on, but it is a complicated time to move.

Oh, okay. So not so much about renewing but more about trying to find other arrangements?

Yeah, but for the time being we’re up here and I just wanted to connect a little bit. I had a new song I wanted to play [introduced as “Cyclone” on the live-stream], and I’ve been learning some covers. So it’s sort of like, “Here’s an opportunity for me to play for a couple of hours, and anybody who wants to tune in can.” That type of thing. So very casual. But it was fun. And I’m sure that we’re going to see more performers using the Internet and live streaming more intentionally as part of their creative outreach.

Yeah, there’s definitely been a ton of it going on. So are you able to share who you are staying with right now? Are you under a stay-at-home order?

Yeah. So Nick [Levine] lives here and then my girlfriend has been staying. And Zack [Levine] and Nandi [Rose] are just 12 minutes away in Chatham, but we’ve been texting. And we actually were going over for dinner. This must have been two weeks ago or something. And I started to feel a little bit on the fritz, just kind of a small illness percolating, so we decided not to risk it, and we ended up just having a conversation through the window for about half an hour.

Yeah. I think we went out to dinner three weeks ago, and it just seems like an eternity and not something we’re doing today.

Certainly not.

What do the days look like for you? Are you getting outside, or physically, what are you doing?

Yeah. I’m outside right now. It’s in the 60s, so it’s pretty nice. There’s a lot of hiking opportunities here. We’ve been going over sometimes into western Mass, which is really pretty. And we’re in northeastern Columbia County, so it’s just a half hour east and you’re almost in the Berkshires. And I’ll say that hikers on the trails have been all really respectful. People are distancing. They’re moving off the trail, waving from a six-foot distance. That’s mostly what we’re doing.

So do you have friends back in Montclair [New Jersey] and is it any different there? And you have people you know in the city I’m sure? I know it probably feels like a world away where you are.

Yeah. I think everybody feels on their own island right now. And you would expect I think a lot of sort of digital socializing, but I have not really been doing that too much.

You haven’t gotten into Zoom? You haven’t done any of those?

I did one Zoom. We did a Zoom for [laughs] a Bernie Sanders New York State organizing meeting.

So what about any books, films, music, TV series, anything you’re tuning into these days?

Yeah, I’ve broken my day up into distinct things that I’m doing. So there’s just reading and then there’s studying, so maybe “lit crit” type stuff. I’m reading this amazing book called Reality Hunger by David Shields. That’s exploring mediation and our perception of reality in media. It was written 10 years ago but this emergent form where we’re seeing bigger and bigger chunks of reality being broken off into art. We see reality TV shows and lots of autobiographical fiction. Auto-fiction you might call it, just like something that’s dancing on the line between art and reality. And that’s extremely interesting to me. And I think that’s something that I’m more or less trying to achieve with my work too. So there’s a lot in there. And also talking about the collective consciousness and the creative commons. Throwing out notions of plagiarism that everything is kind of recycled and that’s a joyous and welcome process. Not something to shy away from. That the spirit of generosity should be animating our practices. And that includes sharing ideas, building on each other with no shying away from quotation and recapitulation.

So that’s kind of a drawn-out version of what the thesis there is. But that’s been really exciting to me. And then I’ve been reading a short story collection by Lucia Berlin. I reread As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner. I read The Yellow House by Sarah M. Broom. That’s a recent memoir about growing up in New Orleans and then Hurricane Katrina.

Well, you’ve been busy.

Oh, yeah. I’m reading as much as possible every day. Then we’re watching movies every night. We watched Birdman which is amazing.

Oh, yeah. Right. I saw it when it came out but it’s been a long time.

And, incidentally, to really work in a lot of the scenes from David Shields’ book Reality Hunger as far as just playing off of public persona versus private narrative roles. But there’s sort of interesting meta-commentary about Edward Norton’s character where he’s been cast as someone that he’s been accused of really being, just that extremely energetic, extremely smart dickhead who just comes in and steals the show.

I remember it was done as a single shot almost. And the cinematography is pretty crazy.

Oh, yeah really a technical achievement there. And the soundtrack is amazing too. It’s mostly drums, almost like jazz drumming.

So what about your own creative time. I know you played one new song on the stream the other day. Are you guys focused on anything creative yourselves? Or is this a difficult time to do that?

Yeah. So I have a new batch of songs that I’m working on. I want to try to get a new album out early next year. I’m 70% done on the writing that is. And I’m also working on text-based projects. I’m trying to teach myself how to write prose well or in a way that’s satisfactory to me. And it’s so hard. I really have to say it’s so much harder than writing songs, for me. I don’t know why that is. But it’s really tough to get the tone right that every little decision matters. So I’m working with that too. That’s honestly where the majority of my time is. I’ve been working on a project that has to do with my family archives. My grandmother was writing a book before she passed away last month. And it’s telling her life story. It’s very interesting. She lived an interesting life.

Oh, wow. Okay.

And I’m kind of trying to sort through some of her writings and help her tell that story and also tell the story of working on it with her, which I think is a unique relationship we had.

Oh, so you were working side by side with her as well?

Yeah, we were. She was 95. And she was working on it for like the last 10 years, but she kept everything. So there’s a lot to go through.

So back on the songwriting a little bit and maybe I should know this already. But do you basically have everything written out and ready to go before you share it with the band or do you work through some of that as you go.

Well, it definitely has to be at a certain place before I take it to them. But, it’s our intention certainly to be improving it in anyway that we can and no way is off limits. So, very rarely they will offer an unsolicited suggestion about lyrics. But sometimes I’m like, “I feel like this line doesn’t quite work” and they’ll be like, “Yeah. Your intuition is on,” or “No, I actually love it.” Which is always helpful feedback. But, usually I’ll come in with arrangement ideas, but those will always become more detailed as we start playing them. It goes album to album, but definitely it starts with me teaching Zack songs.

Okay. All right. So, you brought up politics a little bit earlier. So, maybe if we flip to that a little bit. You already touched on this, but I was going to ask about it as well, just this whole COVID-19 situation and what that did to interrupt the flow of things. You talked about the Wisconsin primary today. It seems like some things were aligning pretty unfavorably for Bernie. I don’t know if it was about a month ago where everybody else pulled out right before Super Tuesday, and put their support behind Biden. So, what’s your sense of what happens between now and the convention. [Ironically, the day after our talk Bernie Sanders withdrew from the 2020 Presidential race.]

Well, so, there’s a lot to be upset about for people that are interested in equality and justice. I think that first of all Biden is a horrible candidate in my estimation. He doesn’t offer anything: he’s like, “Trump’s an aberration. But I really believe the Republican Party will come to their senses and want to cooperate,” or something like that. And it’s just the most naive statement. As if he wasn’t in the executive branch for the prior eight years and saw what Mitch McConnell and everybody was doing. Anyway, beyond that very old-guard way of thinking, he has his hands on basically every bad bill that’s shaped disastrous American policy for as long as he’s been able to. He takes money from oil companies. He refused to sign the no oil money pledge. Maybe a minor point, but I just have no confidence that he’s going to be strong enough on climate legislation. He has threatened to cut social security before. He’s against Medicare for all in the middle of a pandemic.

It seems like he’s just totally dropped off the radar in the middle of all this as well. I don’t know. Maybe there just hasn’t been any coverage.

No. There’s no leadership coming from him. Meanwhile, we’ve got a lot of really thoughtful action from the Bernie campaign. They’ve rerouted a lot of their donations to important causes right now, which of course need financial support. They are using their infrastructure very thoughtfully to educate people about what’s going on, what they can do, what the impact is in various corners of the economy.

You mean specific to the COVID-19 situation in particular?

Yeah I do. I think he’s really shown great leadership. And also it’s just upsetting to see the media response. There’s such slanted coverage. Such manufactured consent where enough pundits say everyone’s thinking this thing then maybe the people start thinking these things. And then besides that, we’re seeing really huge margins between exit polls and outcomes. We’re seeing in some cases, 8-, 10-, 12-point percentage difference. Which we’re totally happy to go into other countries and coup them if they have something like 4 or 5 percent difference. And I think it’s something like 6% that the UN has said is “an unacceptable differential.”

And these are primary results you’re talking about?

Yeah. Right. I mean, does anybody believe that Joe Biden won Washington State? That is so strange to me. And how poorly Elizabeth Warren did in Massachusetts I think also is a little fishy. They are just things that I really wish that people were talking about and investigating on. Just extremely skeptical about the whole process.

Yeah. Even without getting into the details of it. Kind of like what I said about what all happened right before Super Tuesday, it’s pretty obvious that the powers that be want a certain outcome.

Oh, yeah. And effectively, they’re propping up somebody who honestly has more baggage than Hillary Clinton did. A worse record. Is less charismatic, if that’s even possible. I mean, this is just my estimation on it. And also, clearly is not as sharp as he used to be. You look at videos of him railing in favor of the ’94 crime bill on the Senate floor and you’re looking at a different person. So it’s just a huge mistake. I think there’s no way that I would vote for him. I refuse for my vote to be held hostage in that way. I live in New York State so it’s a different sort of ethical puzzle, but I understand anybody who can’t stomach another defensive vote.

Right, I understand. This is probably a bit of a loaded question, but your view on the government handling of the COVID-19 situation in general, whether that be nationally or more regionally or locally?

Yeah. They’re doing a bad job.

Yeah. That’s the easiest way to say it, right? [Laughs]

I mean, you look at South Korea that had their first reported case on the same day as us. And now, that’s an issue of scale, of course a way smaller country. But they did a lot of things right. And Trump just downplayed it and downplayed it and now he’s saying that a good outcome would be 100,000 deaths which is more than American soldiers died in World War I. So I think there’re a lot of reasons to be pissed off.

Yeah, no. Absolutely. I mean, it seems like Cuomo was taking things pretty seriously as governor, at least.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I guess. I don’t know. I think that if we really saw anybody taking it seriously that they’d be talking about Medicare for all.

Or maybe he just looks better than De Blasio is all. So I don’t know yeah.

Who knows? I mean De Blasio has a lot on his hands too. I think to me, it just really underscores the need for free healthcare for every citizen. Our insurance is only as good as our neighbors, if you know what I mean. It’s like this whole perception that illness has some ethical properties to it, like good people don’t get sick. Or something like that, and it’s just so insane. For insurance to work, first of all it shouldn’t be a for-profit enterprise, I think that’s just preying on people’s misery or fear and it’s absolutely barbaric. I don’t think that my vision really deviates much from most of the people who are saying, “Hey, it’s time that everybody who’s in this country—regardless of any other factor—should be able to go see a doctor if they’re not feeling well.”

Right. And I know there’s all sorts of stats starting to come on, disparate impact on different communities from this and who all’s been impacted you know?

Oh, yeah. I think that’s all there to be backed up.

Can we flip back and talk about Marigold a little bit?

Yeah, let’s.

So back when we were going to talk before it was all fresh. So now that it’s been out a little bit longer I kind of cut back on that a little bit. I think my favorite song is “Endless.” I assume that was written during the hiatus period and now here we are in this other kind of stasis. So maybe if you could talk about that either contextually about today or how did this song come about?

Yeah. Sure. So, yes, I wrote this album during a tough time, but it was my intention to have it be narratively situated in a way that other people could inhabit the first person. I’ve been thinking a lot about the communal I or the first-person plural [laughter], the communal I. And I started thinking about that when I began to realize that a lot of people were singing at our concerts along with my first-person lyrics.

Right. Okay.

They were literally inhabiting that narrative as they sang it all with each other and that there was something sort of powerful about that from a grammatical perspective and so since I realized that, and that must have been around the Cardinal era, I’ve tried to make songs that would be affirmative to inhabit. Songs that treat all of the subjects or characters involved in the songs treated all tenderly and with respect, even when I’m talking about difficult things, challenging things, friction and tensions. So this song, I just wanted this to set the scene there to say that, yes, it was inspired by my life, but I don’t want to limit what the song is trying to do by keeping it contained in that context.

Right. I understand what you’re saying. And I had a question about that, too. I mean, it does seem that this album has gone more towards the general instead of specific. “Dotted Line” has some detail in it, but the rest of it you’re giving people a chance to get inside the song and walk around in their own shoes.

Yeah that’s the hope. And I think that maybe this song is broad about being in an unknown space, but nevertheless finding optimism in there somehow. And I think the that the optimism is activated through empathy, that the thesis of the song, if it’s okay to say that, is that when we experience emotion deeply, we’re connected to other people that have experienced that same feeling. That feeling pain does, at the very least, connect us with other people who have felt that. And at the very best, it helps us understand what other people are going through and can kind of more positively calibrate our stance towards the world.

Yeah. So the song seems to relate to where we are today as well.

Yeah. It’s a song about patience. And I think that the hope of the song is that there’s something meaningful that we can each find in whatever experience we’re having and that in a certain way, that’s an opportunity in any experience. And I want to connect this also to the song “Moment,” which I think has a similar thesis, where the whole song is kind of tobogganing towards that last line, what’s in this moment right. Where you’re stuck in traffic, which the character calls a disaster. [Laughs] It’s kind of an overreaction but, you know, it was also meant more broadly than that. It’s an opportunity to take stock, to take personal inventory in any single moment. Just still on “Endless” though, I began the song in my sleep actually. I woke up from a dream where I was listening to Lucinda Williams and it actually is pretty similar to her song “Fruits of My Labor.” But it was an amalgamation of those types of melodies and I woke up and knew I had a song. And that was a really a cathartic day for me.

Yeah. It’s brilliant. You should be proud of that.

Thank you. Yeah, that song helped me. I don’t go into a song knowing what I’m going to learn from the song. It’s my intention to go in with humility and try to listen to what the song is trying to say. And so each song—if it’s a good one—it teaches me something. But it’s a very abstract sort of education. So the way I’m describing it is the best that I can but it’s essentially a nonverbal lesson. I think that a lot of music listeners would sort of agree with that process, that we’re learning something from the combination of melody and lyrics and harmony and rhythm.

I don’t want to take too much more of your time, but a couple of other things. So maybe this is a little abstract but I think of “Endless” and then “Alcove” and “Neighbor” as a little bit of a pairing and then at the front of the album you’ve got “Alarmist” that goes into “No Drugs.” Was there some thought in the sequencing of “Endless” going into “Alcove”? You go into a softer spot sonically at least.

Yeah. Absolutely. I’m trying to sequence it dynamically and trying to tell a story with all the signifiers that are available to me and you’re right to say that one of the biggest ones that we respond to is dynamics, that that’s kind of a narrative tool outside of the lyrics. So yeah, “Alcove” for me is kind of about hibernation, so that’s the flower folding up.

Okay. We’re in that mode today as well, I guess. [Laughs] Whether we like it or not.

Yeah [laughs], but I think—well, if you’re in Florida it’s probably happened for you already, but we’re just starting to see some flowers up here.

Oh, yeah. No, they never go away here but it’s definitely starting to heat up. I wanted to ask about “Neighbor” a little bit, as well. I do live in Florida, but I’m from Texas originally, so that song kind of blew me away the first time I heard it. It’s got this old-timey, waltz-type feel to it. Was that always in mind to have that sound to it, or how did that come about?

Yeah. Well, it was just sort of so natural for what the song was. I don’t know if I can really walk through the intention of it, because it happened kind of organically.

Yeah, that’s cool.

But that song for me was about thinking about community. It was about widening the aperture from just human community to how we’re interacting with our other neighbors. Living upstate there’s a lot of wildlife, and that means that you encounter a lot of death too, just because it’s a statistics thing. And so just yesterday I buried a bird that I found dead on our property, and that is really hard, really painful. And there are lots of bugs that are also residents of our house, especially stinkbugs. Their backs are in these hard shields. There’s a brown sort of psychedelic paisley pattern on their shell. They fly around clumsily, and make loud sounds when they bump into lamps and stuff, but they’re really very cute. And you’ll find them on their backs, and they have this amazing built-in mechanism to flip themselves over, so that’s what the first verse is about. It’s about stinkbugs. I don’t know their [laughs] Latin taxonomical name, but we call them stinkbugs up here.

Well, that’s what we call them in Texas too. I did think it was interesting, and I don’t know. This may not mean much to you, but you mentioned Lucinda Williams. I grew up around a lot of those singer/songwriters and stuff in Texas, and I thought it was interesting you guys didn’t play “Neighbor” that whole run of gigs through Texas, at least I didn’t see it on the set lists. I didn’t know if there was some intention behind that.

No, we were playing it earlier on, and we were kind of tweaking it, and we were playing it in soundcheck, and I think we had 26 songs that we prepared for the tour. And as the tour goes on, we change our setlist a little bit less, because we’re just trying to seek what the strongest setlist is, what the best sequence is, what the best selection is, so ultimately we end up playing our best 20 to 22 songs on any given night. Whatever the best arrangements are right then regardless of which ones they are. Yeah, so I think fundamentally it was just an issue of not finding an arrangement that we all were really psyched on. I don’t know. It’s not even that. I think on its own terms we liked it but we just liked 20 songs a little bit better than that.

Yeah, no, that’s cool. Hey, I’ll wrap things up but I just kind of wanted to close with this, kind of setting aside the current condition we’re in. I’ve got to assume the new decade felt like something of a rebirth for you guys. So just, what do the 2020’s look like for you and the band? You’ve got lots of squares left to fill out on your website. What’s the bigger picture?

Yeah, well, I imagine a website that is a really, thoroughly archived, highly searchable, kind of “gamified,” almost like a sort of different type of social media platform, maybe. One that would be really fun for our listeners to play around on and meet each other on and also just with the same open-source ethos of the rest of our stuff. We want to continue putting out tabs and probably somewhere down the line we’ll be putting out stems for all of our albums and lots of live recordings, demos, all that. We want to just, kind of, put it all out. So, yeah I do imagine this kind of utopian online community. Yeah, outside of that, I mean it’s, we’re going to be working on a new record. It wouldn’t surprise me if after that we are taking it a little bit slower. You know, I imagine some of us in the band are going to be starting families, sort of soon. I want to go back to school. So I’m looking into graduate programs too but we’ll always be writing and playing. And I think that any listeners of Pinegrove can be sure that whenever we have something interesting to contribute, we will.

Okay, so you’re not going to do the Fleet Foxes thing and just disappear for a couple of years?

Well, I don’t know, that’s not off the table necessarily [laughs] but there are lots of projects that I’m excited about and some of them are Pinegrove and some of them are not necessarily Pinegrove. But it’s all good.

That’s awesome. Okay, well, cool. I really appreciate all your time. You gave me a lot, so, thank you for that.

Sure, I like talking about this stuff. Thanks for the good questions and conversation.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

I hope you guys are staying safe and sound.

We are, we’re all good, so I appreciate that and you guys hang in there as well. And good luck, I think you have a June 4th date on your site so I hope that happens.

We’ll see, I doubt it [laughter] but, you know, it’s all good. We’re sort of happy to have a little bit of time off so it’s not the worst thing in the world but yeah, here’s to hoping that the rest of the world is doing okay.

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