Keeping Score: Ben Salisbury and Bob Locke on the Trials and Rewards of "Devs" | Under the Radar Magazine Under the Radar | Music Blog for the Indie Music Magazine
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Keeping Score: Ben Salisbury and Bob Locke on the Trials and Rewards of “Devs”

The Collaborating Composers Share Their Impressions of Shaping Atmosphere in an Alex Garland Universe

Jun 12, 2020 Web Exclusive
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A look back at the work of filmmaker Alex Garland sees a storyteller of high-concept. If there is a through-line connecting the films he has conceived, written, and directed, it’s that the states and properties of the physical and spiritual universe that stretch comprehension are perhaps well enough left a mystery. The protagonists of his hi-tech worlds are hyper-intelligent people who must reconcile advancements of technology with their natural vulnerability brought to light by those pursuits. While evolution in understanding through scientific theory can bring us closer to higher truth, such pursuits may also prove perilous.

Garland’s films are also all highly entertaining. Beginning with Ex Machina in 2014, the writer turned filmmaker has put together a sci-fi trilogy of sorts, following with Annihilation in 2018 and most recently the FX television series Devs, which was thought of as a long film divided into eight parts. Each has provoked inspection of the delicate harmony between the natural world and new technology while delivering on the dramatic thrills that move the story along. This balancing act is what has made Garland’s output so absorbing. The films and shows we love the most provide both intellectual and sensual stimulation. We don’t mind being challenged to think about what we’re consuming, so long as we’re enjoying it.

The composer tandem of Ben Salisbury and Geoff Barrow has been with Alex Garland the whole way, matching his creative daring and fearlessness and demonstrating the reaches of score making device that you must hear to believe. [Think the distinctively mind-bending synth-symphony for the climactic sequence of Annihilation.] What they know is that it’s no small achievement to fabricate the sonic environments where complex ideas intersect and gestate. When you step into a project to make music for Alex Garland, you must have your thinking caps on.

The degree of difficulty was raised for Salisbury and Barrow in the landscape of Devs, where a cutting edge tech leader with a god complex has built a top-secret facility of unprecedented design, hidden in the woodland hills of his company’s Silicon Valley campus. It houses the world’s most powerful quantum computer with unfathomable capabilities. As the nefarious lengths he will go to protect its code become clear – most unfortunately so for the story’s protagonist, a young software engineer named Lily – so too do his ulterior motivations for its application.

Devs is compelling because while it asks us to confront questions surrounding the interconnectivity of humanity, technology, and religion – and the philosophies born from such discourse – it delivers them in a tale propelled by the dramatic attributes that keep the viewer’s interest: murder, mystery, espionage, betrayal…love.

The task of the composer to substantively and stylistically meet each of these themes is massive, so Salisbury and Barrow brought reinforcements. Knowing how hard it was to work on a two hour Alex Garland feature film, let alone an eight hour one divided into a series, they recruited long time friends Bob Locke and Tim Norfolk, a composer tandem of their own known as The Insects.

The relationship of the four composers began with tie-ins to popular British bands. The Insects have played with artists like Massive Attack and Alison Moyet, while Geoff Barrow has literally been instrumental in bands like Portishead and Beak. Salisbury himself records in a duo called Dolman. The familiarity of playing in bands was fortified when all four collaborated on the Amazon original series Hanna and proved essential in designing a pathway through Devs that sounded seamless.

Nothing is arbitrary in an Alex Garland sphere. Even if the music that accompanies his departures from the ordinary can sometimes seem discordant on the surface, there is purpose embedded. Garland’s storytelling is speculatory, leaping into possible worlds we are on the cusp of. The music, therefore, has to follow that ambition. There are sequences in Devs traipsing into the unfamiliar, so Garland gives license to unexpected marriages of image and sound that do the same.

The density of subject matter in Devs presented the composing team with a tall order. How do you design a coherent score for a story that explores the argument of determinism versus free will, quantum theories of the multiverse, and the associated religious overtones of these principles, all while adhering to the humanity of the characters faced with making sense of it all?

Somehow, Salisbury, Barrow, Locke, and Norfolk managed to fuse individual treatments that coalesced to reflect this conceptual intersection.

The scoring elements of bells, gongs, synth textures, and voices overlap in layers that phase in and out of sync, suggesting randomness, chaos, parallel dimension, and infinite outcome. Then the score strips down to striking, solitary notes of brass and string or arresting devotional chant, symbolizing undeterred purpose, or determined fate. Some may construe the intentions of these elements differently – varied interpretation is welcome in an Alex Garland presentation – but one purpose is inarguable: to make the audience identify with the characters and promote investment in their fates. This is where the more traditional use of emotive scoring comes into play, along with the selective choice of source music that keeps things grounded.

If all of these considerations seem dizzying, just imagine what it’s like for a team of composers tasked with finding a unified direction for a show like this, one that satisfied the vision of the creator. I can’t. Fortunately, two of the composers of this team, Ben Salisbury and Bob Locke, were generous enough to relate the experience. Through a long discussion over Zoom that couldn’t realistically avoid detail, the composer friends described the process of parsing an Alex Garland concept for instructive meaning and landing with an engaging score that avoided the parlance of their medium. As they would both agree based on their work on Devs, deep dives can be rewarding.

Charles Steinberg [Keepng Score]: I imagine that in composer duos it can be challenging enough to identify roles and share ideas. Doesn’t that become even more complicated when adding another partnership into the mix?

Ben Salisbury: I think the fact that we were both duo composing teams, we just extended that to a degree. Unlike with Hanna, we all piled in together from the beginning even before we had seen any footage. We all read the script and got together and messed about in Geoff’s studio with various ideas. The way we divided the work came organically.

Bob Locke: We kind of formed a band didn’t we!?

BS: Yeah, we formed a band and then split up to get the work done [mututal laughter]. Then got back together again for the reunion concert [more laughter].

Well, now you have all these bands that sprung from film work because you and Geoff had a prog band going for the music on Free Fire.

BS: We did actually, yeah.

BL: This one [for Devs] was a hippie cult band.

BS: Yeah, it was temple music. We were all playing Thai gongs and bought a bunch of HAPI steel tongue drums that are used in chanting groups.

BL: Alex actually invited us to the Devs set in Manchester, which was really inspiring and a really brilliant thing for him to do. We had already talked about the religious elements in the script but that evening, Ben said that [the Devs lab] could be a temple and that the tech-heads could be the disciples. That’s when we came up with the idea for bells. Most of the music that [Tim and I] did included those bells even if they didn’t sound like bells anymore because they were so processed. So much of the music we brought into the later episodes came from those initial recordings of our [so called] religious cult band.

Yeah, the religious character of the music rang most clearly in that moment of truth of the final episode. The resonant chanting voices of “The Day Will Break” theme echo as they would in a temple or cathedral. Was that a deliberate choice made because of the way the story was culminating?

BS: That was our slightly wrong and warped take on a renaissance hymn. Maybe it was baroque, I may be getting my periods mixed up. There are snippets of that [along the way] and it was all set up with the idea that it all lands properly in that final episode…The concept of devotional music was probably the first thing we talked about with Alex. The religious overtones in the story aren’t a secret. There’s a full-on Eve allegory going on [with Lily] and [a quantum projection of] Christ even appears in episode three…The cult bells and chanting that we did in early sessions were a response to the temple of Devs in a way and there were also some pretty overt religious pieces like “Plainsong”, which was one of the themes that runs through the series. That was my take on a very simple gregorian plainsong chant but played with strings. An interesting part of the composer collaboration came in the final episode when me and Geoff were taking care of the hymn theme, so Alex asked Bob and Tim to write something completely different. They wrote “Second Coming” which became the bedrock of that episode and those two pieces became Alex’s two favorites of the whole series.

BL: “Plainsong” is a fantastic piece and Alex had come up with this idea of messing around with fugues. In a way, you can say that a fugue almost has no beginning and no end. They’re very cyclical. When I first heard “Plainsong”, I had assumed that Ben had been influenced by the fugue idea but you had already come up with that hadn’t you, Ben?

BS: Yeah, it was a very simple hymn, almost like the Dies Irae [“Main Title Theme”] in The Shining. It was that vibe. But all of us experimented with process music, where elements go in and out of phase with each other, which was a literal interpretation of the Devs “many worlds” concept.

Can you explain that more?

BS: The most obvious example of that in Devs wasn’t even a piece by us. We had talked about that in the world of Devs, multiple worlds are going on [concurrently]...

Parallel universes.

BS: Yes, and things are going slightly out of phase with each other. Back in the late sixties, people like Steve Reich experimented with phase music…

BL: Yeah, with tape, right?

BS: Yeah. The famous Steve Reich piece is called “Come Out” which is used at the beginning of episode seven. I believe he set up two analog tape recorders at the same time and played the same tape loop, which was a guy saying “I had to, like, open the bruise up and let some of the bruise blood come out the show them…” [quoted from 18 yr. Old Daniel Hamm. There’s a harrowing story behind this relevant to the current reckoning with police brutality] Reich looped the “Come out to show them” bit by playing the two tape recorders simultaneously, but by the nature of analog, one of them is playing it slightly faster than the other one. They very gradually go out of phase with each other and you get this weird echo effect.

BL: A weird rhythm if fact…

BS: It has become a standard A-level technique when you’re learning about modern music and it’s still a very valid way of learning. You set up a small pattern and allow it to gradually go out of phase. It’s very easy to do with computers and you get this oscillating [effect of sound] until it then comes back into phase. We messed around with that. You may not hear it overtly but you do get some stuttering voices and in “Plainsong”, there’s an element that gets warped. The melody plays out of phase and you get these weird string pulses. Whether anyone hears that doesn’t matter in a way. It fires off certain ways of working that are useful as a composer, doesn’t it, Bob?

BL: Absolutely. We even tried some of that with the religious bells in subtle ways. I agree that I don’t think anyone would know that it’s going out of phase but it creates atmospheres that you wouldn’t get any other way, I think.

Yeah, I don’t think there was any point where I directly picked up on what you’re describing but when I think back over the experience of watching the whole series, there was a feeling of being unsettled and out of sync the more that gets revealed. Some of what you’re describing perhaps contributes to the unease from the idea of not having volition or free will and that choice is an illusion.

BS: I think you’re right and I think that if anything, the very simple melodies like “Plainsong” were attached to Lily’s predetermined journey. It works because it’s a simple melody and you know where it’s going. That’s partly because you’ve heard it throughout but it also has a trajectory that almost feels predetermined. All of these things were considered and that’s the other great thing about working with Alex; You get to examine those aspects of musical creativity. He’s into it.

BL: He’s a massive fan isn’t he? He really wants to learn things from music.

BS: And he’ll always tell you what he’s thinking the film should be doing based on how he’s written it but he won’t get didactic about the musical intricacies.

BL: What was very interesting about him was this very non-linear way of working. Usually, when you work on an eight-part series, you work on one episode and go to the next. Because Alex was working on every element at the same time, the music [followed what he was focused on].

BS: He would have done the music as well if he could. [Mutual Laughter]

BL: Right! I recall we had a viewing session for episode two, so we wanted to get as much music in as we could. Alex called and said, “Listen, it’s sounding great so far but don’t worry about episode two. I just want you to do a completely new piece for episode eight”. We hadn’t even seen any of episode eight! I found it quite refreshing actually, jumping from episode to episode…And he was one hundred percent involved in the score. Some directors don’t get involved so much. Some decide whether or not they like it afterward. I get the feeling some directors don’t even like music that much. That’s not Alex.

BS: No. It’s not a bolted-on element [for him]. What makes working for and with him so difficult and intense – and why we’re enjoying a break from it – is also what makes it unbelievably rewarding. You’re almost massively overstepping your brief with Alex; You’re right there involved even from pre-production right through post-production and much more a part of the filmmaking experience than normal. If I’m honest, a lot of mine and Geoff’s best work has come out of that experience, whether you like it or not. There are people that fucking hate the Devs score, which is totally fine. I get it because it’s quite noticeable. You’re not playing a bit role when you’re doing music for Alex’s things. That makes you stick your head above the parapet. You’ve got a lot of heavy lifting to do and you don’t get that opportunity often as a film composer. I often hear composers saying that the best scores are the ones that aren’t noticed and I’ve always found that weird. There are elements that you don’t want to be noticed but if you get the chance to write music that’s going to hit people between the eyeballs, whether that’s to scare them or move them, that’s what we’re in this game for. That’s why it’s such a privilege working for Alex.

Ben, you have built a relationship with Alex over a succession of projects now and perhaps know what to expect and how to proceed based on his tastes and rhythms. Bob, this was the first experience for you and Tim in that familiar dynamic. How did you get up to speed, so to speak?

BL: Me and Tim had talked about this and thought it might be difficult to break into that relationship. You’ve got to be careful, but to be honest, Ben, Geoff, and Alex were so willing to have us involved that it was like, “Come on, let’s go.” Once we started, we didn’t really think about it…I never felt threatened by that.

BS: There’s definitely a shorthand that me, Geoff and Alex have developed, which by the middle of the process, I think was understood by everyone. In the beginning, Alex did lean on me for the conversation. The fact that some of the big establishing themes were mine had something to do with that, but there was a benefit in the freshness of Bob and Tim’s input. Some of my favorite pieces in the series are these fairly simple but effective emotional ones that Bob and Tim did.

The use of vocals was something that I felt worked to great effect in Annihilation and the human voice is very central in the Devs score.

BS: Some of the vocal elements are similar to what we had done in Annihilation but there wasn’t a direct throughline. In Devs, the voices came from the religiosity and the devotional aspect. We had the idea of making up a phrase or a note for singers to sing and all of us were singing it as well. Everyone was doing it in their own time and getting into a zen-like state…I can’t pretend this is what we were thinking, but if you wanted to make some ground philosophy about it, episodes one through four were using voices in a sort of cult-like choral sense – where you don’t really know what the Devs computer is doing or how. You don’t know what its purpose is. Episode five is the first time you see the objects being inputted into the computer and things are starting to clarify in terms of what it’s capable of. That’s where the masses of voices [funnel down] into the clarity of one voice, which was first introduced by my assistant, Suvi. The idea of many worlds is introduced there as well when you see Katie multiple times [in one frame]. This is where concepts are crystalizing, so the amorphous chorus of voices becomes a singular one.

You’re saying that wasn’t a conscious choice?

BS: It was a conscious choice to do something new but I literally thought of that reasoning just now. I can’t pretend we thought it through with that much detail [during the process].

But maybe that’s why it felt right.

BS. Yeah. We knew we’d been using choir in chanting form and so let’s crystalize it down. I don’t think it hits you as something radically new but it hopefully [signifies] a step.

BL: I might digress here, but we never actually thought about writing music for the Devs quantum computer. We had written music for the effects and the power it had on people but we never thought about doing some piece of tech music for the computer itself.

BS: No. And there were the aspects of thriller/horror music [common to a Garland film] but I think the thing that Alex wanted in this score that doesn’t exist in other things we have done is that essence of a love story as well. Whether it’s the love for a daughter or the love between Jamie and Lily. That emotional aspect was a slightly new challenge in Devs and that was a great thing to have Bob and Tim along for.

I noticed that. There was a distinctly different feel during the moments where you’re connecting to the relationship between Lily and Jamie. There was a bit of sadness to it but also a kernel of something they shared before that’s coming back.

BS: Yeah, and it was hard to do. One thing we all share as composers is that we want to avoid standardisms. But there were love scenes and you’ve got to follow that musical path to a degree. In the scheme of Devs, there were linking scenes and Bob and Tim set up these plaintive, simple, but very beautiful string pieces, which is not something Geoff and I had really done. We had used strings in Annihilation for tension and horror but hadn’t used them for traditional emotional effect. The fact that Bob and Tim had set up those [connective] themes meant that when I was doing a theme for Lily and Jaime, it felt like we were allowed to go with essentially traditional film scoring.

One of the unexpected recurrences of instrumentation was something that sounded like a jazz clarinet. It seemed to be associated with the Amaya campus and the eerie statue of Forest’s daughter towering over the trees. Bringing the concept of determinism back into it, it’s one of those things that felt like it was meant to be there.

BS: It was a soprano saxophone. That came from a piece of music that Alex had always earmarked from the beginning of episode one, a piece by Jan Garbarek and the Hilliard ensemble. That ensemble sings a sort of medieval, renaissance music and they collaborated with Garbarek who is a Jazz saxophonist…Like in Annihilation where we worked off of the Crosby, Stills & Nash piece [“Helplessly Hoping”] with solo acoustic guitar, we took the sound of Garbarek’s saxophone and built from that. Sonically, it’s quite arresting and beautiful and it has a tie in with all of the aerial shots of the Devs building. Some people hated it because it really sticks out, which is fair enough.

BL: For me, it translated the beauty of the landscape around Devs. It announced a return to Devs whenever we’re going back there. Like, “What the fuck’s about to happen now?” It’s emotional in how it’s played but has a metallic, grating quality at the same time.

BS: The way we did it was to have two great saxophone players who we’ve worked with before – one of whom plays in Portishead’s live band, Ross Hughes, and this other stalwart from Bristol, Ben Waghorn. We sat them on either side of the studio and sang a phrase to them. One of them would copy that phrase and the other would try to repeat it. Again, it was a sort of phasing of similar sound in its most simplistic form. Alex always likened it to a call to prayer as well. There’s also that element of antiphonal prayer, where you have one choir calling and another repeating.

BL: Another great example of that was the use of “The Fortunate Ones” by The Beacon Sound Choir that Geoff found and was used in episode three. We worked off of that too didn’t we?

BS: Yeah, and that’s another great thing about working with Alex. The source music isn’t just bolted on because it sounds nice. It’s discussed with the composers and we see if there’s a way you can extrapolate something from a source piece that sounds like it’s from the same world. If you know the source song is going to be there and it’s not going to change, then why not work around it.

BL: I agree with all of that, Ben, except for knowing that it’s not going to change [Laughter]

BS: True, but the Hilliard Ensemble piece that introduces you to the series in episode one was never going to change. Steve Reich’s “Come Out”, however, was never earmarked to be in the show. That was just something me and Alex had discussed early on in the process. He loved it and then shocked us all when we were all up in the edit suite and he said, “I think I found a place for “Come Out” and I’m going to inter-splice it with some Inuit throat singing.” We were like, “Uhh…Ok…” [mutual laughter] but it was fucking brilliant.

That’s a bold move!

BS: Yes and at that stage in the series, we were confident in what we were doing, so you’re allowed to make a bold move. In fact, you always are with Alex. He actively encourages it.

BL: Yeah, he does.

BS: And that’s probably why people do take a disliking to the stuff that we’ve done for him because it’s bold.

With the source music, there also seems to be a carryover to Devs from Annihilation where “Helplessly Hoping” by Crosby Stills & Nash was used. Here you get the song “Oh I Wept” by Free. Is there something going on there with Alex wanting to ground things with a piece of ‘70s music amidst these fantastical worlds he’s created?

BS: The simplest answer is that he loves that kind of music and we all love it as well. He uses “Guinnevere” in episode six and that was another Crosby, Stills & Nash piece of music we had discussed using in Annihilation. But I think you have a point. There is a grounding element to that music and not just because it’s from the ‘70s. We did have a worry of this becoming a late-forties, middle-aged man’s playlist [mutual laughter] but then we all just go, “This music is great.” and why would you not want to get music like this into the film?

“Aquarius” was another bold choice.

BL: That was brilliant!

BS: That was brilliant. What source music does that you can’t do with score is give you a breath of fresh air. When you put in something like “Aquarius”, you take a little break from the heaviness, in a way. When I was watching episode three with fresh eyes, I thought that people probably think it’s score when it comes in, and they’re probably thinking, “This is mental. These composers have done some mad things but what are they doing here!?” And then it’s like, “Oh, it’s not score….right, brilliant!”

The score and source music were unexpected in that way throughout the series and I loved that because it keeps you alert and on your toes. The Low song “Congregation” was also very unexpected but worked.

BS: A brilliant use over the fight scene, I thought.

Right! The fight scene in slow motion.

BS: Again, it was like, “How do you do a fight scene and not make it standard?” It’s not filmed in a standard way either. We all decided it couldn’t be scored. It’s got to be “other”. The traditional way to score a fight scene would be to make it dramatic but we were never going to score that, were we, Bob?

BL: No. Alex didn’t want it to look like a classy fight or even two blokes that were good at fighting. He wanted it to be ugly and real and horrible and that one of these guys could end up dying. By putting that Low track on, you get a divorce between the music and what’s actually going on. That made it feel more real to me. These slightly out of condition blokes are going to try to turn each other’s heads off.

Counter-intuitive almost.

BL: Exactly that. That’s the term.

BS: The amount of times we’ve gone with the counter-intuitive thing with Alex has almost become cliché. We just kind of look at each other and go, “Right, we’re doing that counter-intuitive thing again.” A good example of that with score comes right at the beginning of Annihilation. We had written this backward Americana acoustic guitar piece that was used during parts in the swamplands. We were struggling with the beginning of the film and Alex went, “I’ve just tried your acoustic guitar piece at the very front of the film and it works.” Me and Geoff were thinking that Alex makes some mad suggestions, but he was off his rocker with this one. There’s no way plaintive acoustic guitar will work over shots from space. But we tried it were like, “Ah fuck, he’s right.”

BL: And he was right. It really worked.

It’s so true! That’s the shining example, isn’t it? I remember seeing Annihilation in the theater and it opens with that amazing shot of this streaking object orbiting the planet and then shooting down directly into a lighthouse. When I heard that solo acoustic guitar playing through the scene, it felt like everything was up in the air. I didn’t know what I was getting into and it was thrilling.

BS: As a composer, you’re always on the search for those moments. They’re brilliant when they happen. They fire you up. It’s a long slog but when you stumble upon something unexpected like that, it’s brilliant for us…The one thing we all have in common is the search for that non-standard approach to something. Sometimes you’re bound to do something standard but if you can find a way to achieve an emotional impact, or like you say, something that throws you so that you’re not sure what’s going on [it’s brilliant]. That feeling of being unsettled is a constant thread through Alex’s stuff.

BL: Yeah, you might write a piece of music for a part that you’ve talked about with Alex and then he’ll call you the next day and say, “I didn’t like it for that part but on this completely different section with a completely different vibe it works.” It’s a topsy-turvy way of doing it and there’s a bit of stumbling but in that stumbling, you find position.

Well, just to wrap things up, I wanted to discuss a significant section of the show during the beginning. In the establishing episodes of the series, Lily is playing catch-up and the audience knows more than she does. Even if you’re not sure what Devs is or what it’s capable of, you’re way ahead of her in terms of what’s really happened to her boyfriend and the plotting of the tech characters. Was that talked about from the standpoint of scoring and how to treat Lily being in the dark?

BS: To a degree. It wasn’t an overriding [talking point] but we considered the question of who’s point of view are you scoring. A good example comes in episode three where Lily is” taking everyone for a ride” so that she can steal the files from Kenton’s computer. We’ve got to play that as a thriller and that’s an example of the opposite, where we don’t know what’s going on but Lily does. We’re scoring that from the perspective of the audience. [Alternatively] there were elements in episode one where we’re scoring from Lily’s point of view. It’s a strange thing about Devs because there are not many thrillers that are set up where you know the outcome and it’s more about how you get there.

BL: What it felt like to me was an evolving [story] where Lily starts to realize what’s going on and we were playing to her discovery. We played a lot towards her.

BS: Yeah, that’s the point. We played towards her discovery and journey and that’s where “Plainsong” comes in and [signifies] her predetermined journey towards Devs.

Are you at the point now, Ben, where Alex has decided that you are his guys for scoring his films? He seems to be very loyal and interested in returning to the principal figures in his work. Do you have that foundation now or is each project thought of as a new launch point?

BS: The very simple answer is both of those things. Who knows what’s predetermined [mutual laughter] but it wouldn’t be out of order to say that I know Alex would discuss music with us going forward. Who knows whether we’ll be able to do the things he wants us to do, with timing and everything, but I can say that I really hope it always works out. If there’s a need for a film or TV series, I’m sure it will now be extended to Bob and Tim as well. There is a shorthand and a trust. Music is a hard one for Alex. There are a lot of aspects of filmmaking that directors are pretty good at themselves. Directors are primarily visual people and story people. He can write everything and make all the decisions on set because he has written it, but music is an area that’s slightly out of his orbit. He knows what he wants the music to do but the actual mechanics of making the music are beyond him. I think I’d be right in saying that there’s a massive amount of trust in us based on what me and Geoff have done in the past and now we’ve got Bob and Tim as well.

BL: I think there’s a massive amount of respect as well. There is that shorthand to be able to know what to grab onto, but with all of us really, we want to be able to stretch ourselves. Alex wants to get somewhere that’s unimagined. It doesn’t make for an easy ride but that’s ok. You’re up for the challenge.

BS: I hope we’ve made clear what a privileged position it is to be in and why would you turn it down?

It sounds like it’s very demanding – more so than your other scoring experiences – but also the most rewarding.

BS: That’s basically it. That said, I wouldn’t want to be going from Devs right into an Alex Garland feature film.

BL: No! Charles, look at my hair, right. I wasn’t this grey before this! [Mutual Laughter]


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