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Aug 22, 2023 By Kyle Mullin Photography by Brianna Blank Web Exclusive

Beverly Glenn-Copeland has every reason not to be so cheery. After all, the 80-year-old new-age virtuoso’s music went overlooked for decades. That is, until a Japanese collector unearthed Glenn-Copeland’s 1986 album Keyboard Fantasies in 2015, prompting a rush of belated label interest. Just as Glenn-Copeland (or Glenn, as his nearest and dearest call him) began capitalizing on that resurgence with a comeback tour (or more like a belated introductory string of gigs), COVID-19 upended both those plans, and he and wife Elizabeth Glenn-Copeland’s income. Eventually they were rendered “essentially homeless” to the point of launching a GoFundMe campaign. There’s also the years of discrimination Glenn faced, first as an out lesbian while studying at McGill in the 60’s, and more recently once he began his gender transition. And as if that weren’t enough, one critic deemed “Harbour (Song For Elizabeth)”—a love song from his new album The Ones Ahead—to be “saccharine.” Of course, that ode to his wife sounds fittingly heartfelt for anyone who has found love, not to mention a safe space to express it, to be hard won.

And yet, Glenn and Elizabeth smiled warmly and laughed heartily while recalling weathering those lows, and celebrating subsequent well-earned highs, during a recent Zoom interview with Under the Radar. Glenn sat in front of a computer at a desk, waving and pointing his tree branch like fingers—which help him play the piano so deftly—to punctuate particular points while answering questions. He also has a charming habit of cracking up and shaking his head with mock incredulity, expressing joy and surprise at his unique life’s twists and turns. Elizabeth would intermittently weigh in, often with on-point comedic timing, between milling about their home in Canada, strolling up to Glenn’s chair and hugging him from behind while offering some words of encouragement or sharing her memories of the couples’ collaborations. Below, they discuss their artistic processes, how music technology has morphed from the Atari Glenn used to craft his early albums to today’s uncertainties about AI, how the trail queer artists like Glenn blazed is under threat by cynical legislators, and much more.

Beverly Glenn-Copeland: Hi there! How do I pronounce your name?

Kyle Mullin (Under the Radar): Kyle. Like ‘isle.’ Thanks for checking. Some people say it wrong.

Glenn: And call your Kaylee or something?

But that’s okay. I’ve been called much worse! [Grins] Let’s start with what you told Cracked magazine in 2020: that your mother would play the piano when you were in utero, in the hopes of turning you into a musician. How do you think she’d react to your success now?

Glenn: She would be very, very proud. [Rests chin on palm of hand, gaze softens.] And she’d love my homage to Elizabeth, “Harbour.” We both feel my mother sent Elizabeth to me. She’d also love my deep bow to my West African heritage in [The Ones Ahead’s opening track] “Africa Calling.” And coming to terms with my own death in “Love Takes All.” She would be very happy about this new album.

What is it like to write a song for a loved one such as “Harbour?” It must be emotionally daunting.

Glenn: I haven’t written a song for any other loved one. So this would be it. [Elizabeth can be heard chuckling in the background.] I write songs for Elizabeth every year on her birthday. Some are silly, and some are deep. And we both love the moment when I give her a card, a bouquet of roses, and her song. When we were putting the album together, Elizabeth came to me all excited, saying: “You have to include ‘Harbour!’” And I said I didn’t remember it. I couldn’t find it anywhere. Lucky for us, she had saved the CD I’d recorded it on.

As for the challenges and joys of penning a love song: for me it’s not that dissimilar to any other song. I listen for what the universal broadcasting system is offering, and I take dictation. And it’s pretty much that simple.

Elizabeth, what is it like being a muse for such a song?

Elizabeth: [Comes back into the frame, holds Glenn and grins before replying.] Oh, I never thought about that.

Glenn: I never thought to ask you.

Elizabeth: But it’s just always a gift every year to get Glenn’s songs. And like he said, some of them are just silly little things, but some have more to them. Two of the deeper ones are “Harbour” and “Now.” The latter no one has heard yet, and might end up on the next album—I know you don’t remember that one either, Glenn. [They both laugh.] But yes, having a love song written for you is quite, quite special. And people are just loving it [“Harbor”]. One reviewer called it “saccharin,” but most people find it quite wonderful.

Glenn: “Saccharin!” [Harumphs, and shakes head in mock incredulity.]

Elizabeth: Our opinion is that it’s lovely.

Glenn: Obviously that person has never loved deeply.

That person needs a muse of their own, maybe.

Glenn: They do.

Well, don’t worry about us music writers. We’re a little difficult to get along with.

Glenn: I have not found that to be true. And at least that reviewer loved the rest of the album. So we gave him a lot of credit for that.

You’ve dealt with much worse, though. Your first two albums didn’t make the impact you were hoping. I read in Cracked about how you “realized the recording industry didn’t have a place” for you. How did you realize that, and how did you move forward?

Glenn: I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Sam the Record Man [the founder of a beloved Canadian record store chain]. He was a good friend of mine in Toronto. So I went to him when my record came out. And he loved the music. But he said he didn’t know where in the store he was supposed to put it. Because it didn’t fit any of the categories.

So I realized then what I was up against. That and the fact that I was Black, and openly queer, made easy acceptance in the music industry in the ’70s quite the challenge, to say the very least.

But those early albums were innovative. You used an Atari computer to make music long before anything like that became mainstream. What do you think about the technological changes in music today, be it AI or auto-tuning?

Glenn: Usually, I’m really happy about technological advances. Some are good. But some are not. Auto-tune, for example, can be useful, but it worries me when it’s overused, because it allows musicians and singers to get quite lazy. And possibly not be able to offer in live performances what we hear in a recording.

And who knows about the future. Because the way things are going is scary. Especially artificial intelligence. It’s already challenging enough to make a living as a performing artist. How much of our work will be swallowed up by this new technology is anyone’s guess. We don’t know if it will say who originally wrote something. Or if it could make vocals that sound just like me, but in fact isn’t. It’s dangerous, I think. It is artificial intelligence, but it really isn’t that intelligent. A friend of mine calls it plagiarism software!

So could you see musicians going on strike like actors and writers are in Hollywood?

Glenn: That’s not beyond possibility. No musician wants to have their work be taken over by some robot thingy that calls itself intelligence. Give me a break. And Lord knows, with things like Spotify paying so little, it’s already so hard to make any money. Like: “Wow, 14 cents? Thank you so much.”

But it’s never been easy for you, as a musician. Do you mind telling me about the courage it took to be an out and queer artist in the ’70s?

Glenn: Many of my queer peers did not come out. They were frightened. And I know my career would have had a totally different trajectory if I’d been willing to stay in the closet, and start wearing makeup and women’s clothing. But I would have felt like I was trans-dressed at that point!

And yet, I didn’t want to take large amounts of testosterone. It would have changed my voice. And being able to sing, especially in the upper octave range, was more important to me than sounding like a regular male. Suddenly becoming a baritone [places hands on chest and dramatically lowers voice] was not going to work for the music I was writing.

Young musicians can be much more open today. At least in music—American state level politics of course lacks that openness. What are your thoughts on that state of things?

Glenn: [Opens palms wide and wiggles fingers while smiling.] I am thrilled. It makes me very, very happy. But I’m deeply concerned about the claw backs to trans, queer and women’s rights in America and Canada. We all need to be on guard against these dangerous patterns. It’s scary. But I am glad that there are these younger artists. They’re willing to take on these challenges, which shows how brave they are. I’m encouraged by that. Because we can’t change things with one person here and there. You need a whole lot of people standing up.

What do you think is an artist’s role in that?

Elizabeth: Art has the ability to disturb the environment in ways that regular conversation does not. That’s why the work we do as artists is so important. Keeping us down, and poor and struggling is part of… [Trails off, thinking of the right word.]

Glenn: [Finishes her sentence.] …part of the process of domination!

Elizabeth: Yes. Thanks for letting me jump in and add that point. [Playfully darts back out of frame.]

Glenn: You go ahead anytime you want, dear. You know, Elizabeth is an amazing artist in her own right. I always say: I have one really big talent. Which we are discussing right now. But Elizabeth has many, many, good talents that she has done professionally for many years. She started in theater, and dance. She was a professional tap and ballet dancer. When you look at climate change and how everything is going to heck because of what we’ve done to our Earth, she was dealing with that when she was a kid. She’d go off to the library with her little wagon, and get adult books. At an age where I was getting kiddie books.

Elizabeth: But Glenn could write a song this second.

Glenn: Oh you want one now? Okay. [Begins singing, dramatically holding high notes.] “Kyle, Kyyyyyle what do you knooooow? We know you know lots.” [Elizabeth can be heard cackling in the background.] I’ll have to think of a good rhyme.

Elizabeth: “Kyle” rhymes with “smile.”

Glenn: Oh yes! I should sing about your smile.

Thank you so much! I’ll have to take the audio from this and play it back for everyone, as evidence that “I know lots.” [All laugh.] So when you two are riffing like this at home, does that become songs you’ll record for an album?

Glenn: Yes, usually after dinner we start making up silly songs. Some of them are really good, though most of them are, ahem [theatrically clears throat and rolls eyes]. And we’ll dance in the kitchen, sometimes as the food is being cooked. We haven’t had a chance to do a lot of that lately, since this new album is coming out. But that’s pretty much been our standard for years and years.

It sounds like you’ve experienced so much together. Shared many highs. And supported each other during deep lows.

Glenn: That’s true! I’m in my eightieth year. And we have had an insane amount of stress since the pandemic began. We moved four times, between three provinces, in three and a half years. And we’re still not settled. So we need to find a forever home. And some financial security. But artists don’t make a lot of money. Though this new album and tour could go a long way in taking the survival stress levels down.

Elizabeth: [Comes back in the frame, holds Glenn tightly.] Can I just say: we want people to understand, we know that our problems are first world problems. We’re not having a big complain-athon. We’re still dealing with survival issues. But we have so much energy coming at us right now, that has to do with creative projects that we wanted to do for years. We’ve written five musicals. And we’re looking to shop them. We are working on a demo for a children’s TV show that is going to be shopped in the fall. So there’s all these really exciting things coming. We’re not looking to retire and sit around and knit.

Glenn: Because my knitting is really poor.

Elizabeth: We have a lot to offer. We just need to ease this pressure, these worries of: “Oh my goodness, how am I going to live?” But again, we’re grateful for everything that we have.

Glenn: Yeah, we’re not starving.

Elizabeth: Right. There are people making two incomes who have to go to the food bank to feed their families.

Glenn: We are very much still living in a society of greed. I don’t mean among the ordinary people. I’m talking about—

Elizabeth: —the one percent.

Glenn: There are of course billionaires who are generous with their money. There’s no one size fits all.

Elizabeth: But we are really hoping that, on this album, “Stand Anthem” will be a bit of a rallying cry.

Glenn: Yes. Elizabeth wrote a play in 2017–

Elizabeth: —called Bearing Witness. And I told Glenn I needed an up-tempo a song for the end of the play. One that sort of sums up all of the themes, and gets people on their feet with an understanding of our collective power. And I gave him some ideas for lyrics. Of course, Glenn can be slower than a turtle at times. But when he writes, it’s amazing. Within 24 hours I had this incredible song. And now I’m so grateful that it, “Stand Anthem,” ended up being properly arranged for this album.

Glenn: Once again, that’s the universal broadcasting system. Me saying: “Hello? I need a really good song.” And the universe sent it to me.

You’re very modest though. It seems like you’re doing much more than an antenna that’s just receiving.

Glenn: You know, it’s all about progress. Bit by bit, I understand more that’s happening in lives.

Elizabeth: Glenn is very modest, you’re right. But I think it’s important for artists reading this to understand that for an artist to allow anything to come through, it means they have to be in tip-top artistic shape. So that when it comes through you can give it voice. It’s the discipline of the artist that Glenn has had in place all his life, that allows him to just seemingly allow something to come through.

Glenn: And you do it too, dear.

Elizabeth: Yes, many artists do. It’s a bit of a misnomer to say, “I’m going to sit around and wait.”

Glenn: I’d love to do that! But yeah, you have to keep your skillset up. You have to study your craft.

Elizabeth: It’s like the story about the cellist Pablo Casals. Somebody went up to him after a concert and said “Oh my God, I would give my life to be able to play like that.” And he said: I did. [Glenn mouths those last words in unison with his wife.]

www.beverlyglenncopeland.com

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